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HJW
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I know that quite a few people are thinkong of entering this competition. You might want to see this from http://www.editorialanonymous.blogspot.com about one of the rules: "11. TNL reserves the right to publish segments/parts of entries other than the winning entry (up to 500 words of any non-winner's entry), and publication does not necessarily mean that the entrant has won a prize. TNL reserves the right to edit entries in its discretion for publication. Entrants will retain copyright in their submitted entries; however, by entering, all entrants give TNL a worldwide royalty free perpetual licence to edit, publish and use segments of each entry in any and all media (including print and online) for publicity and news purposes. In particular, all entrants license TNL the right to print their entry on Times Online and in The Times or The Sunday Times or any of their supplements." Editorial Anonymous says: "The part that troubles me is the single word "perpetual". Perpetual?
So let me get this straight: They get to publish any 500 words (edited/abridged at their discretion) from your novel forever? Royalty free? And as far as I can see, they have not committed to only publishing the same 500 words, so they could conceivably publish your entire novel in serial form, 500 words at a time.
No doubt Chicken House already has a deal with the Times to sell them "first serial" rights for the winning entry (assuming that winner agrees to the Chicken House's contract). Which is acceptable—it means the Times gets to print an excerpt ahead of the book's publication. That's just good publicity.
But I'll bet you Chicken House isn't going to give the Times perpetual anything with regards to the work they invest money in. So I'm at a loss as to why the Times thinks lone authors would agree to such a thing (besides, obviously, ignorance).
I think it's acceptable for the Times to ask for the right to print a single example of 500 words of your manuscript in all of their media within a particular window of time—and I would count that time in weeks or months rather than years—that usage would cover the building of publicity around this contest, which is reasonable. But the only reason they would choose to use your work over and over throughout years is if it were making them money. And how much of that money would be for you? That's right: zero." I can't work out whether this is something to be bothered about or not? What do others think?
This post was last edited by HJW, 24 Oct 2007, 13:43
Oh blogger
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Tabby
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Hi HJW
I'm no legal expert (surprise, surprise) or any kind of expert, but I think with any competition there are always elements within the rules that aren't totally agreeable. Unfortunately, I feel that such is the way when trying to break into the market.
What I do think is important is that until you sign a legally binding contract you are free to back out of the competition up to the last minute ie. if you were to win, you don't have to sign a contract with them if something makes you feel uncomfortable.
I'm sure that anything that is going to be published outside of the printed book would be specifically for advertising reasons. As you say, Chicken House is involved and I'm sure they won't want a print run potentially affected or limited by serialisation. But at the same time imagine the potential for advertising and marketing which is where some problems lie for first time writers.
Pros and cons with anything. I think we as writers have to take risks sometimes. I sometimes worry about the fact that I have my work posted on this site for the world to see.
Don't know if this helps - like I say I'm no expert.
Tabby
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HJW
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Actually, I don't think the winnner has anything at all to worry about. It's a fabulous opportunity. It's the rest of the entrants that might be putting themselves in an awkward position. By entering the competition all non winners give the Times pereptual license to pint their work. You don't have to sign anything to make this legally binding, I don't think. So, say Pig Boy doesn't win the comp, but you go on to find a publisher for it. The Times then publishes it for free...
Oh blogger
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Tabby
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Quote: HJW, Wednesday, 24 Oct 2007 14:37Actually, I don't think the winnner has anything at all to worry about. It's a fabulous opportunity. It's the rest of the entrants that might be putting themselves in an awkward position. By entering the competition all non winners give the Times pereptual license to pint their work. You don't have to sign anything to make this legally binding, I don't think. So, say Pig Boy doesn't win the comp, but you go on to find a publisher for it. The Times then publishes it for free... Hi again Was just about to post. I misread your initial post and you're right about it concerning all other entrants. My mistake I'm being a numpty. Doesn't the 'up to 500 words' seem significant? I've looked through my printout and I can't actually see the 500 word limit mentioned but if it's there I'd feel less concerned. I seem to remember Josie commenting on a competition that held on to her ms for ages. I think there's nearly always some little catch. I think that's the risks we have to take to somehow breakthrough.
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josiehenley
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Quote: Tabby, Wednesday, 24 Oct 2007 14:49I seem to remember Josie commenting on a competition that held on to her ms for ages. I think there's nearly always some little catch. I think that's the risks we have to take to somehow breakthrough. Indeed they did! But it hasn’t put me off this sort of competition, as I’ve entered this one as well. I think I learned a lot since then and now go into these things with my eyes open. Competitions like these often have the clause that they will have the right to use unsuccessful entries in marketing the comp either now or in future years (they might repeat the same comp next year). Also there will be the possibility that someone who enters this comp and doesn’t win will become the next JK Rowling several years down the line, at which point the Times will publish a 500 word extract of their first novel which was crap with a fanfare. That’s the sort of thing they do. I entered Big Brother about five years ago and got through the first few rounds but not to the semi-finals that went on the TV. They have the initial video of me playing lego which I sent in the application, a video of me playing silly games in a group of other second rounders and an in-depth interview with me about my childhood and background. I never got to the last 50 or whatever that were put on the TV, but you can guarantee if I ever become famous for anything, they’ll dredge up this footage of me being very candid about my personal life and use it any way they want to, as they own the copyright and I signed an agreement for them to keep it for future marketing purposes. Perhaps at the twenty year anniversary they’ll dig up the worst haircuts of Big Bro applicants and I’ll be on that!
"I have nothing to declare except my genius" Oscar Wilde www.josiehenley.net
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Tabby
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Quote: josiehenley, Wednesday, 24 Oct 2007 15:05I entered Big Brother about five years ago and got through the first few rounds but not to the semi-finals that went on the TV. They have the initial video of me playing lego which I sent in the application, a video of me playing silly games in a group of other second rounders and an in-depth interview with me about my childhood and background. I never got to the last 50 or whatever that were put on the TV, but you can guarantee if I ever become famous for anything, they’ll dredge up this footage of me being very candid about my personal life and use it any way they want to, as they own the copyright and I signed an agreement for them to keep it for future marketing purposes. Perhaps at the twenty year anniversary they’ll dig up the worst haircuts of Big Bro applicants and I’ll be on that!   
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HJW
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Wow. Josie. Thanks for the replies you two. Good luck!
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josiehenley
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Quote: Tabby, Wednesday, 24 Oct 2007 15:14Quote: josiehenley, Wednesday, 24 Oct 2007 15:05I entered Big Brother about five years ago ... erm, jawdrop because I entered Big Brother? 
This post was last edited by josiehenley, 25 Oct 2007, 13:13
"I have nothing to declare except my genius" Oscar Wilde www.josiehenley.net
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Kasia
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i've always wanted to audition for Big Bro, well i used to; feel to old and set in my ways now (at thirty seven!) What made you want to do it Josie, for me it was for very shallow purposes, i wanted people to like me and think i'm fab! I wanted to show how wonderful i am! In terms of the competition, yes in someways if you are going to make it as a successful writer, then the Times could publish your novel from the comp, but as Josie says, it is unlikely to harm your career. Yet on the otherhand, if it is truly crap, it might put people off buying your published novel - but then would a newspaper print a crap serial? the real problem is, if it is the same novel that subsequently got picked up and published with a few tweaks, the Times has a hot seller, rights to publish a hyped up novel and sell more papers. But would they? K 
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josiehenley
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Why did I apply for Big Bro? Tabby said in another thread that I seemed so ordinary which made her jaw drop that I’d want to apply!! Most people who know me would contest that I’m ordinary, lol. I’m a bit of a show off really, but then I think you have to be to get anywhere in this world. Well, it was about 5 years ago at which time it wasn’t quite as crap as it became later. When I saw the contestants that year I was glad that I hadn’t got in because they were all boring show-offs and had nothing going for them to actually show, where at least I do! Plus it was the year it became nasty I seem to remember, depriving them of food and toilet paper etc. The main reason was that I was out of work and thought what the hell? I was getting frustrated in my writing career and finding that people with no talent whatsoever were getting published simply because they were famous. So I thought this would be a way of getting published, really. I could do the thing of becoming famous by just being fabulous me, and then once I was out of the house I could say, btw I have three unpublished novels, who’s the highest bidder? And surprise everyone that I could actually write! Being a lesbian and very opinionated, plus having a difficult childhood etc etc (I have ADHD and went to special schools) I think that they were keen to have me in the mix as they like to pit big personalities against each other, but maybe they thought I was too much of a risk. As it turned out there have been people with many more issues than me turning up on BB and it seems like they set up situations that are going to get out of hand just for the viewing figures. So I’m glad I’m out of all that. I still do wonder about whether to use my sob-story background to become famous, e.g. writing a misery memoir, but not sure about the loss of integrity that might go with this. I’m not someone who can be used by a publicity manager, I’m not vulnerable enough.
"I have nothing to declare except my genius" Oscar Wilde www.josiehenley.net
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Kasia
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i think i stopped wanting to go into BB about the same time, before that the mix was always interesting and diverse. Would have been great self publicity i agree.
Kx
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Tabby
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Quote: josiehenley, Friday, 26 Oct 2007 08:59Why did I apply for Big Bro? Tabby said in another thread that I seemed so ordinary which made her jaw drop that I’d want to apply!! I said 'Normal' not 'ordinary'. 
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josiehenley
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eeee 'normal' is even worse than 'ordinary'!! 
"I have nothing to declare except my genius" Oscar Wilde www.josiehenley.net
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Tabby
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josiehenley
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Looks like the BB housemates to me! Hope I'm the one with sunglasses, lol. In actual fact I'm probably the crazy -  No worries, I didn't take offence at all, honest!
This post was last edited by josiehenley, 01 Nov 2007, 14:32
"I have nothing to declare except my genius" Oscar Wilde www.josiehenley.net
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Times/Chicken House Competition Question
24 Oct 2007, 13:42
dictionary.
